Daybook of ZorkFox the Laughing Magician


March 8th, 2005

Fanatics and Fallacies @ 07:47 pm

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Mood: [ Mood Icon ] thoughtful
Music: Computer fans and grocery store clatter.


A few weeks ago, one of my co-workers--whom I shall call Ron--discovered that I am an amateur astronomer. (How he did this is a side story which I won't relate at this time.) He gave me the URL to a Web site he said was full of good information supported by people with doctorates and degrees and experience. I thought, . o O ( Well, that sounds great, but I'll give him the URL of a site I like in return, then we can both talk about it. ) Ron pointed me at Enterprise Mission (warning: high image content and poor site design--everything is right on the front page). I pointed Ron at Bad Astronomy (a few site navigation issues, but basically a sound place).

Now, being a regular Bad Reader, I knew something of the (dodgy) Enterprise Mission already, but being that I like to know both sides of a situation or argument, I thought I'd go have another look. At least, I thought, I can brush up on the most recent nonsense and thus be better-equipped to speak with Ron when next we met at work. To his credit, Ron DID actually have a look at Bad Astronomy. But, when he approached me over the next few days, he was almost shouting--as though I had, in some way, insulted his personal hero. He talked about how Bad Astronomy didn't actually PROVE any of Enterprise Mission's claims wrong, but instead just SAID they were wrong (which isn't true).

I don't normally like to involve myself in quasi-religious debates--Windows versus Macintosh, Astronomy versus Astrology--but I tried to gently prod Ron into reconsidering some of his beliefs, encouraged him to read some of the Bad Astronomy pages. I hoped that with some sound, scientific information that he would at least entertain the possibility that the solar system is not littered with alien ruins or that NASA is not a covert agency focused solely on keeping "the truth" from the public.

Sadly, this was not the case.

For a little while, I tried talking to Ron on my own, rather than relying entirely on the Bad Astronomy information, but I discovered that debating things with a pseudoscientist is next to impossible. Not only did Ron actually swear at me and raise his voice, but he seems to know the ins and outs of the "theories" pretty well, while my knowledge of the nonsense is pretty minimal: therefore, it's impossible for me to argue against every point he might bring up. This single-minded behavior puzzled me. I agree with the Bad Astronomy pages because they make the most sense. Would I LIKE for the solar system to be strewn with the leavings of previous inhabitants? Sure! That would be amazing! But in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, how can a pseudoscientist maintain his religious fervor?

It took me a while to figure it out, but I think I've got it.

The psuedoscientists have lots of theories and predictions--they're really guesses and wishful thinking, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt. One of the Enterprise Mission predictions is called the Mars Tidal Model, and what it purports to do is predict where ancient Martian oceans once seethed on the surface. Thanks to the Mars Express orbiter from ESA, we're getting REALLY great images of the Martian surface. One of the recent images appears to be plates of some kind (think tectonic plates, though it seems unlikely that Mars ever had much tectonic activity)... and the current leading interpretation of these is: they might be plates of ice on a frozen ocean, covered over with dust. To me, this seems as likely as anything, given that we're now certain water once flowed across the surface of Mars. That's GREAT support for the Mars Tidal Model, as it would mean there's water EXACTLY where the model predicted it would be.

(Never mind, for the moment, that a lowland just off the largest, tallest, highest terrain feature on the planet is a LIKELY place for ANYONE to expect water to collect.)

Unfortunately, instead of simply accepting this information and adding it to their side of the "argument," the Enterprise Mission folks claim this PROVES they were right all along about another of their "theories." Which one? This one, about how an ancient Martian city lies buried in a sheet of ice beneath Cydonia. I've never had a logic class, so I don't know the proper name for this fallacy of argument, but it's just not CORRECT to say that something you've claimed all along is proved by a "leading interpretation" of some pictures. I'm sorry, it's just not.

This, I think, is where the psuedoscientists are getting their energy to continue fighting. I'm not prepared to say that everything they spout is incorrect--there's an excellent debunking of the "Apollo Moon Landing Was A Hoax!" theory, written by the Enterprise Mission's "principal investigator," Richard Hoagland. My view of the universe is it's sufficiently strange that anything might, in fact, be waiting out there. But I want to see some evidence before I believe it, and I think it's plenty strange already without our having to see aliens behind every surface feature of every non-terrestrial worldlet.


"For me, the causality is unconvincing."
 

Comments

 
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From:[info]kliefox
Date: March 9th, 2005 05:23 am (UTC)
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Man... Some people are just totally gungho, and just not willing to accept there's other possibilities. It sucks.

I commend you for keeping your cool, and showing that you're a better person by doing what you did.

-Scotty
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From:[info]zorkfox
Date: March 9th, 2005 09:31 am (UTC)

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Thanks. It does, indeed, sucketh. There are also a lot of believers after astrology at my store, and they're forever trying to analyze me by my sign. And they seem to take my disbelief in their pseudoscience as a signal to redouble their efforts to prove its efficacy to me.

"I don't believe in that stuff," I say, having expended great effort of will not to say "crap" instead of "stuff," in order that I might maintain a polite working relationship with these people. "Well," they say, "it's really true, you should look into it. I have this great book...."
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From:[info]kliefox
Date: March 9th, 2005 01:30 pm (UTC)
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Well, I do like astrology, more in that I find it amusing that its usually pretty general.

Weird Al wrote a song about it called "Your Horoscope for Today" which a is hilarious song, where a part he rifles on this part about how you have to believe that the relative position of the stars have a special meaning that applies to only you, and that its supported by scientific documented evidence, so you have to believe that every single one of them is absolutely true.

I can upload it to yousend.com if you want to hear the song.

I suppose you could decline, politely, if someone approaches you like that again. "Sorry, I just don't feel astrology is for me." but you might find yourself in the same situation as here no matter what you do.

On a side note, I like your Ratchet icons.
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From:[info]zorkfox
Date: March 10th, 2005 04:43 am (UTC)

Definitely Not for Me

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I have that song, actually, and it's one of my favorites! :) I'm the one who'll have my tongue frozen to the back of a speeding bus.

Thank you again: I like my Ratchet icons, too. I used to have a few more, but they came from inferior screen shots, so I trashed them. He has such great expressions! In "Going Commando" I had to turn on one of the cheats just so I could continue watching his face after obtaining the best armor--it has this annoying helmet which covers his entire face.
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From:[info]typographer
Date: March 9th, 2005 08:35 am (UTC)

You engaged the whacko

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Brave man. Particularly when it's a co-worker, I try to avoid engaging. If they tell me about this great book they read about how cooking food leeches the vitamins from it, and the proof of this theory is the gorilla ("The gorilla is the strongest ape in the world; it eats nothing but raw vegetables. Ipso facto...") I just go, "Wow, I didn't know that," and move on.

Personally, I think they have defective brains. But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. ^_~
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From:[info]zorkfox
Date: March 9th, 2005 09:23 am (UTC)

Re: You engaged the whacko

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Yes, I engaged the whacko. But considering where I work, it's hard to avoid them.

A while back, our store newsletter reprinted a list of Coke properties, coupled to a list of statistics about how Americans are chronically dehydrated. The list of Coke properties said things like, "If you put a nail in a bath of Coke, it will dissolve in three days," or, "State Patrol officers carry a gallon of Coke in their trunks to wash blood off highways," and other such nonsense.

Naturally, these things are ridiculous, as anyone who reads snopes.com or straightdope.com should know. But people are ignorant of even such simple things as product labels and the rules which govern them (for example, that ingredients are listed in descending order according to the quantities which appear in the product), so I suppose it's not so strange that misconceptions about the powers of Coke are easy for people to buy.

I wanted to write a letter to the editor about their one-site "research," but I never got around to it. This reminds me of the gaffe almost committed by the City of Boston when it made moves to ban the use of Styrofoam cups at all city functions and in all offices because the production of Styrofoam uses hydrogen hydroxide which, when inhaled, kills human beings. Naturally. (Some paralegal who'd been paid to prepare a report did his "research" on one Web site which turned out to be a hoax site. Just search for "hydrogen hydroxide" or "dihydrogen oxide" on Google and you'll see what I mean.)
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From:[info]kliefox
Date: March 9th, 2005 01:19 pm (UTC)

Re: You engaged the whacko

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Heh, I remember that one neighborhood hoax. "Your tap water is contaminated with Dihydrogen Oxide!"
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From:[info]zorkfox
Date: March 10th, 2005 02:09 am (UTC)

Re: You engaged the whacko

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That's a good one, but it's not as subtle as just saying "hydrogen hydroxide, when inhaled by humans, causes death." Saying someone's tap water is "contaminated" by something that isn't really a contaminant is a lie, or at best misinformation. Telling them the water, when inhaled, causes death is true... it just capitalizes on the fact that a majority of people don't know their molecular nomenclature from high school chemistry. :)
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From:[info]erikjdurwoodii
Date: March 9th, 2005 01:00 pm (UTC)

Valid points all...

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Ahh, the challenges for those in pursuit of knowledge…

I totally understand where you are coming from. I have a background in the pursuance of sciences that are too fresh and too new to be accepted and etched in the annals of history. Quite often, I am approached online or by one of my co-workers on my views of “generic breakthrough here” and if I coincidentally know anything on the topic, I will give my usual un-biased “could be” or “maybe not” responses, gauge their attitude, then go from there.

I quite often encounter individuals that think so highly of themselves that they have the privilege to ensure that you know what is truth and fiction. Pseudo-Scientists are one of the best examples.

These are people that had an idea…then they looked for information to support it. So right off the bat, they are fueling themselves with information only to support their views. Now, if they were to look at both views and try and find research to the contrary, that would be different. But for the most part, they now have all the ammo they need to say “Look! I was RIGHT!” The second attribute I observe, is the steadfast confidence/arrogance that their views are absolute. I can’t tell you the number of times I have said my views only to have been torn apart with an endless arsenal of convoluted reasoning and factoids taken out of context.

Albeit, I sound like that which I am making an example of, but I, as well as a few of my friends, have some differing qualities that set us apart from the Pseudo-Scientists. First of all is a rational grasp of reality. It’s amazing what some people believe in from the smallest inkling of data. At that point, it’s not “I believe it because it’s true,” but more like “I believe it because I want to.” And I’m sorry, I like to base my beliefs on more than my dreams and desires. Reality is much more depressing than that. ^__^ Second, we research as much as possible on as many viewpoints as we can. Part of having a belief you can stand by, is understanding it from all angles. If you still believe and understand your ideas considering any and all information to the contrary, you’re either an idiot, or a genius ^__^ And the last major quality I have, is that I willing to be wrong. When given substantial evidence to the contrary, I am willing to say I was wrong. I have no problem with that. However, the amount of “proof” needed to sway views, varies from person to person. Some people can be swayed by seeing it with their eyes and some need a 300-page thesis with solid repeatable mathematics.

Wow, this reply went on and on…

Well I commend you for your interpersonal skills in handling that gentleman. It takes an intelligent person to keep cool when his/her own views are being torn apart. What I like is when the “evidence” is so ridiculous that it’s hard to keep from laughing. They hate that though… ^__^

The more I think about it, the next time you’re visiting Jennifer down here, we should sit down and chat. It’s refreshing to know another person that is open minded but rationally so.

Oh, and your icon is almost finished ^__^
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From:[info]zorkfox
Date: March 10th, 2005 02:05 am (UTC)

Re: Valid points all...

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[info]stoda once told me (though he may have been quoting someone else), "The mark of an educated mind is the ability to entertain an idea without accepting it." Or something to that effect. It certainly seems to apply in your case, for which I am grateful. I look forward to chatting.

And I look forward to the icon. :)
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From:[info]pd_thor
Date: March 9th, 2005 04:24 pm (UTC)

::nods::

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I must say, you certainly do have ... eclectic ... co-workers.
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From:[info]zorkfox
Date: March 10th, 2005 04:44 am (UTC)

Re: ::nods::

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My good man, you're far too kind. Far too kind, indeed.


Daybook of ZorkFox the Laughing Magician